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hey Dan what do we got on today Jacob wrote an article on why a 6.6 Kow solar system is sold with a 5 KW inverter why it's so common in I guess proposals to people y not so much recently it's still around yeah for sure um historically it's been probably the most common thing people have seen in advertising marketing of course in the industry so would love to get your take on it you obviously did your apprenti at Endeavor energy you understand how all it works behind the scenes and obviously you've built this business here at Pena so yeah y well yeah it's a it's a good question and unfortunately the soul industry is played with 6.6 kilow system marketing right and like people will ring up and they'll say I want a 6.6 kilow quote I'm like uh yuck no you don't that suits no one like you've just seen Alan border on TV spooking it for 4 and a half Grand or something dumb like that right um I remember firstly Dan the first time I ever sold a 6.6 KW system because I was disgusted right that it only had a 5 kilow inverter pre 2015 if you did a 5 kilow inverter it had 5 Kow of panels no ifs or buts about it and then the new 2015 current STC scheme was introduced and they introduced a rule that you're allowed to oversize the PV by 30 3% so you times the inverter capacity by 1.33 gives you this magic number that you're allowed to put panels to inverter to oversize it which ultimately does make it run more efficiently so we started seeing 5 K inverters times 1.33 does give you a perfect 6.6 now that 6.6 Kow scenario actually occurs with every size of inverter right so 10 KW for example 13.2 is the max um 30 Kow you can go up to 39 .9 off the top of my head so but the reason that you see 6.6 played so frequently is because you can actually put it on basically everyone's house with very little red tape in terms of dnsp requirements so that being osgrid essential energy and um Endeavor energy which is our dnsp so the the reason there little red tape is because you can literally slap a 5 kilow inverter on anyone's house you're supposed to do voltage rers calcul ations supposed to be balanced but to be honest these monkeys don't do any of that stuff they just know that they can get a permission to connect which is a proof for to put it on and they just sell it and there's also no export limitation in most cases with a 5 kilow inverter and 6.6 now now Dan I know of companies and it's almost comical what they do if you want solar from a company they'll say yeah you can have a 6.6 or a 13.2 or if you really want to go all out you can have the whatever the next one is right like the 19 or whatever and what they're doing is they're actually just giving selling you two 6.6 kilow packages their sales people are just like Auto takers you want one two or three of these things maybe four they don't use like a 10 kilow inverter or anything the person the the install subbies will literally Rock up and install two 6.6 kilow systems on your house which is just the wrong thing to do it's a terrible solution it's just so disjoint is how I describe it you know it's not optimized really it's not optimized and and a 6.6 KW system very rarely is that the optimum size for anyone I mean the average system that we do at pen solar right now is almost 12 kilow so we H in 2017 like 6.6 was our average and then it went to seven then 8.2 and then nine and then 10 and it's just kept growing as homes become electrified the demand increases so therefore a larger system is needed so that's why we are now up to you know nearly 12 and I think in in the next 5 years you'll probably see that go to 15 down and and when we start battery storage uh everyone says like when battery storage comes I'm here to tell you a t right now you know April 2024 we had a 60% battery attachment rate at pen of solar center which is so high one of the highest in the industry which means if 100 customers bought solar office 60 of them bought solar and Battery which is a crazy number right so as that number becomes 100 and it will become 100 and as we uh increasingly have more and more electric vehicles the average system will just keep increasing what do you think a 6.6 Kow system is going to do with someone with an electric vehicle nothing nothing at all it's it's it's going to really be a disappointing experience it Le nothing for the car yeah nothing at all that's right you still have a huge bill a huge bill but they're often promised that they'll have nothing right like you know get a 6.6 you'll produce 24 kwatt hours a day it in like grade well not really it doesn't work like that and they're always string inverters right so let's unpack a little further down as to why this 6.6 option is so popular with people who actually know nothing about solar but sell it anyway right the 5 kilow string inverter is the most produced inverter probably times three I reckon I think eights and T today uh yeah I mean tens are beting eights and tens are be getting up there but fives would still definitely be the most um so the the cost to produce that inverter is is significantly less naturally through scale right so I'm not saying that a um a 6.6 KW system is necessarily going to be bad value but is it going to be the right fit absolutely not very rarely is it going to be the right fit um the other reason why people bang them in is like we spoke about the the lack of red tape to get them approved from dnps around the country um it's everyone's reference point you know people really work hard to try and get a 6.6 in now for for companies like us who don't use subcontractors we are very very um expensive for a 6.6 kilow system you got to think we have full-time electricians on our books so for you as a client Dan you're going to pay a day rate to us whether you buy 6.6 KW or you buy 18 Kow which is roughly what we're capable of doing in a day so you can imagine as you get to the 15 16 17 18 kilowatt Mark the value for money through us is second to none no one can possibly Beat It we are the most efficient at what we do however the opposite is true for a 6.6 and we never push our guys to do two in one day we're quality over quantity sort of company so for 6.6 you're going to pay that same day charge as someone who's actually just bought a 15 now these companies that are selling these or flogging off is a better word these 6.6 Kow systems they are not electricians themselves which means they do not employ electricians they're using install subbies and they're getting the installs as cheap as they possibly can paying dollar per panel and as panels increase in wattage so from 400 to 440 450 and so on so forth the amount of panels that it actually takes to do a 6.6 is getting less and less right I think it's like 14 or or 13 panels at the moment you know so those subbies are only actually doing a 13 panel install therefore getting paid far less they're getting they're getting really screwed down by the company who's selling them right therefore driving them to do two or three in a day sacrificing all quality and just banging these things in so 6.6 generic system with tier one panels and an unnamed string inverter is probably the worst thing you can actually do for your home and you are going to be in a world of hurt especially when you need to rely on some kind of warranty in the future um because these systems are done at such low margins like 2 to 3% bottom line margins there's no money allocated for warranty there's no money allocated to come back and fix anything and to be honest I don't have the skill set to do it anyway so it's just done so so cheaply that the person who ends up paying more is the person who actually bought the cheap crap in the beginning there's a common phrase if you buy cheap buy twice and that is exactly how the 6.6 kilowatt with 5 Kow inverter solar system always ends up you know always and the difficult thing is if if this is their first solar experience let's say they they bought the 6.6 um then just taken up the prime real estate on the roof so they come to us for an assistant add-on and we educate them about like getting a battery May in a system addon um they they might have they slapped it in the middle of the roof you're right you're 100% right it's a big problem really difficult to find a great value add-on option or design for people that have you know 3 four year old system that's just taking up that Prime real estate and might yeah conversations isn't it absolutely and then like when people come to us in the future and want to B on a battery and realize their 6.6 Kow systems not actually producing enough to charge a battery that's when we're having those uncomfortable conversations and we say well who installed it or I don't know they were out of Towners they lived in Queensland they just come down for the weekend it was a red hot deal you know like these are all shitty excuses that we hear for people not doing their own homework and due diligence right a well-designed system is a system that can be expanded in the future very easily right like the designer has really thought about the roof space they're using they haven't placed it intentionally in the shade just for a shorter cable run you know there's a whole array and other videos that we've made around well-designed systems these 6.6 KW systems are not welld designed in fact installation subcontractors will actually arrive to site and probably not even have a roof plan to go off it'll be up to them on the day to get up and measure up the roof and and bang this thing in so you can just imagine as well that the shortcuts that are taken whilst installing these systems like are they grinding tiles to ensure the feet sit flush no they're not like are they actually doing voltage drives calculations no they're not are they actually making sure this systems installed in the most compliant manner possible no they are not you know they're not leveling rail with string lines I can tell you that for free like they are banging this thing in and they are out of there before you know before smoko quite literally so that's unfortunately and you speak you speak to clients in the future like after if they've bought that garbage right and they go one of two ways in the future they either come back to us and eventually have it ripped off because it doesn't work anymore or they become that really stale sour person who says solar doesn't work it's not fair on a solar indust on on the solar industry if you went out and bought that 6.6 for 3 and a half 4 grand if you go tell all you make solar doesn't work that's that's not fair you went and bought cheap garbage that's like going and buying a cheap secondhand car that only has three months worth of redo left on it and it runs out of redo you can't get it re-registered and you say cars are crap they don't work that that that's the exact equivalent you know or even worse than it's not just them breaking down like fires are a really hot topic at the moment you know like we don't I'm not not here to preach about you know end phase versus string this conversation is not about that this conversations about 6.6 Kil being the wrong fit for everyone right but the amount of solar fires and rooftop DC isolator fires that you see out there it's actually really common that they do come with 6.6 Kow systems they are installed by these people who who get in and out so fast and just have very little attention to detail and um pride in their workmanship they don't have the money or the the the resources to actually spend the time to be proud of their workmanship you know and um unfortunately these style of installers and sales companies have gotten their hands on Tesla power walls as well so they do sell cheaper batteries which are like an alpha ESS or you know there's a there's a whole heap of garbage batteries out there right but we see some Tesla power War iOS and people have bought a good product but they've bought it off a company that just their 6.6 Kow specialist AKA specializes it in nothing and now they've got their hands on this beautiful product the Tesla power wall I they pay someone 650 800 900 bucks to install it go and slap that in you know Johnny and off you go and they quite literally slap it in I mean we've seen a great example today um which we might get some photos in this video of this is a a a client who bought a power wall off someone else for $500 less than what we were doing them for right and you you're about to see the comparison I'm going to talk you through it as the photos come up on the screen the first photo you're going to see is a beautiful installed Gateway which is what we install right the Tesla Gateway everyone has a Gateway but this is the This is how we do it this is our workmanship this is exactly how we leave it finished then the next photo this photo you're about to see right now this is a gateway installed by someone who's paid by the battery and paid by the panel this is an absolute shambles this is zero pride in this workmanship this is not safe this is not compliant and I don't even know like if the homeowner opened this up they'd probably have a heart attack then this next photo Dan is a photo of two Tesla power walls installed side by side we've gone and added the second one on and you can see there's no conduit coming down the wall there's a naked isolator there's a lot of Pride that's gone into that battery the battery is level it's installed and most importantly it's going to have after sales service and Care taken on it the first battery that you see next to our greatl looking battery has a bit of conduit slapped down the wall now like the effort that it actually takes Dan to get the cable down the wall isn't too much more it's a little bit more of a skill but it's not too much more than just slapping this conduit pumping it through the eve and just putting it into the side of the battery like it's just so so lazy you know and our guys rock up and and obviously the company who installed this first power was probably out of business right they're probably not there to give long-term support like what we are and it is world the the installation quality and the workmanship The Pride that we take in our work is world's aart from what most people in the Solar industry actually do and it's a shame that we're seeing this 6.6 kilowatt plague Venture into things like the Tesla power wall but we are seeing it and consumers need to be aware of the differences and need to be aware that there are so many sharks out there now some of them are even naming their business after shark it's almost comical right so yeah consumers need to be aware Dan But ultimately that is why if someone's throwing a 6.6 kilow system in your face they're not having the conversation about future electric vehicle battery storage or any of that good stuff and they're telling you it's going to wipe your bill to zero man run just run they're not the company for you they really are not the company for anyone subcontractor who installed the first Power wall at that site that we went to this week that was a cavity brick construction is it quite a simple cavity to to to access to run that but I look at that and I think I don't think this trades person even had a second thought to run that they probably not even a TR they're just running conj like there's like muscle memory it's the NBN stuff all over again NBN wouldn't dare hit a cavity the muscle memory is just it's safer like the standard operating procedure would be just external conj get there like follow the process like there is not an opportunity for the trades person to or whoever it is to think on the like no strive for a better quality in strive there's no incentive there's no they don't have Facebook pages showing quality work they have Facebook pages showing shuny solar ads that's the difference right these people don't have uh Galleries and Learning Centers and and you know they're not there for for for the people they're there for themselves and for a quick Buck you know and they'll get that quick Buck they're the sort of company that won't pay their ATO debt they'll be out of business in 2 to three years and you know we Australians still support them and it's it's not good you know we've really got to smarten up and become more situationally aware to what these companies are doing and how they manipulating um people's brains and taking advantage of tough financial times at the moment that's exactly what they're doing like how you do one thing is how you do everything and if I look at that battery and I see that conduit slapped up in the up there I know they haven't clipped the cable in the roof and and that's the other thing just show this picture right now Dan they they ran the cable on top of the sing that's a huge no no you can't do that you know and and I knew that before we even looked at these photos because Dan how you do one thing is how you do everything and if that's how you show up the first thing that I see when I look at your power wall I'm telling you now the thing is a dog's breakfast the whole way through inside and out why would they make it any better anywhere anywhere else there's no there's no reason to so yeah it's unfortunate you know the the client's lucky that we've we've come in and and taken ownership of that site and um you know we've made an effort to make it compliant uh fireproofed it and things like that which it wasn't to start with we can't go and unwire it and start again you know that's not possible but you know we can do our best and we can you know take over something like that but um yeah the 6.6 is Dan they're a little harder to take over the the risks that are associated with those kind of products in the manner that they're installed um can cause someone some serious amount of harm it's it's a really really big problem so we don't want to own those those systems and those liabilities on people's roofs yeah yeah and and when it comes to our our system removals are a lot of them you finding the 6.6 or is it very yes they they are they are they're actually 6.6 or less rarely do we take off uh like eights and tens it's quite rare unless they catastrophically failed um it mostly yes is 6.6 you know the other day Dan out the back there was a brand well not brand new obviously cuz LG are no longer around but there was a an LG system out the back with 330 watt panels it had been on someone's roof for 2 years you know and I just looked at that out the back and I went oh what happened and it had a catastrophic failure which had nothing to do with the quality LG panels because they were good panels it had everything to do with installation quality and you know those panels they're never going to see a roof ever again that's a real tragedy you know so install quality is so so so important and these 6.6 Kow Bandits they just don't have it and the best way for the average mom and dad to ensure they're going to get a good experience with their installation company wherever they are in Australia or around the world oh look inhouse installers um are always going to be better than sub I mean I say always and that's maybe that's actually not true Dan because you got to remember I was once an install subie 2 and when I was faced with difficult decisions like am I going to get the second job done in a day or am I not I I hand of my heart I always put the client's best interest first so I would quite often disappoint the sales company uh that we were working for by not getting that next install done or not making it to that next site which ultimately disappoints the client as well but I didn't take shortcuts electrically right my electrical work was always very very good but I think that I was probably Cut From a Different Cloth not everyone actually is putting the time and energy into the solar industry like what we are right now I think if if you're a mom and dad you know if you're in Sydney you're lucky come and talk to us and you know you don't even have to buy off us to be honest just Benchmark us you know if you want to get quotes off other people that feel free to do so we don't mind we we you know we'd love to do your job but if if if you've looked at us and you and the beauty of us being in pen if we forced everyone around us to up their game if people don't play depender solar standards we just smoke them every day and there are great local companies around us that do do good work right that have almost followed in our footsteps and they are all electricians none of them are not electricians right they're electricians um you know they're pretty hungry and they know if they're going to survive they've got to play in pen solar league right and to their credit they absolutely do they do really well if you're in other states you know Queens you've got Springers you've got MC electrical Adelaide you've got NRG Tasmania you've got I want energy um you know Melbourne you've got lightning energy total Solar Solutions there there are those great companies all around the country that you can you don't have to buy off them but at least give them a shot at designing your system because they are they are the best they are the best no one's better than those guys right so if you and they all have well most of them have in-housing stalls I think they actually all of those have in-house installers right they're the sort of companies that have training facilities like us like they they don't all do end phase only unfortunately some of them still do string but they'll do a really nice string install you know as good as a string install can possibly get so a lot of them or some of them are frous Fanboy some of them do su grow um but as I always say Dan installation quality overrides your choice of inverter and your choice of inverter overrides your choice of panel right so installation quality is number one one and it always will be so yeah that's my advice if you're in any of those areas Google those companies I said and just just Benchmark them get a quote off them see what they're about you what you'll probably find is quite often they're actually not even the most expensive some of these solar sharks you know they might have ads on Facebook saying they do 6.6 Kow for 4 and a half Grand but the exact same companies out there door knocking poor Grandma and Grandpa and trying to sell them a 6.6 for for 102 Grand right and the reason for it is is because those sales Consultants they get to keep half the profit or half the margin that they sell above the base price of that system so if the company says Hey consultant I want uh you know you got to sell this system for four grand that's our that's our base cost and and the consultant goes out and sells it for eight they split the profit right so you have sold it for four grand over the consultant will take two grand and the company will take two grand those companies I just mentioned Dan that do quality work they sell for we we sell for set prices right so you can our price list is almost publicly available right what we sell to you a 10 kilow for will sell to the next person and the next person obviously depending on on you know the style of your home sometimes there will be additional labor for tricky things like 45 degree pitch roofs but for most part you'll always get a very very consistent quote and you will with all those companies too so you don't have to settle for the door kner actually you should never settle for the door knocker but you don't have to settle for people that are pressure selling you you don't have to settle for people who don't have in-house installers you know these people these companies are actually out there and they do the right thing so um yeah that's that's my Pro tip for moms and dads you know don't settle get a couple of quotes feel comfortable with that company don't just buy off the Slick salesperson who tells you a 6.6 is going to smoke your bills because it's really really cheap yes you'll pay twice I guarantee you maybe three times and ask about their after sales service like what's the process in three months like how are you gonna take care of like you're just out of here see well let me tell you Dan every salesperson can talk about an after sales service right cool story how about you ring the company ring their 1800 number or their their 1300 number and tell them you're an existing client and ask to speak to their service department right and I mean like I hate saying it but I don't hate saying it because people call our service department and actually try do that to us and you'll get Trevor Jack or whoever's on the phones and service department and we'll be fast man we got like less than 24-hour turnaround time on service calls right now like we are ace at service calls but that's where the proof in the put is the the consultant always going to say yeah yeah yeah we got a service department whatever how about you call them yourself Bluff them tell them you're a existing client I don't want to give you my name I want to tell you what my problem is how about you pass me to the service department oh oh what service department well that's exactly right what are you going to do when I actually have a problem you know no service department is is no future and and you you don't want to be associated with those kind of companies for the sake of a couple hundred bucks that's right 100% man awesome that's awesome well hey it's been a great discussion it's one of my uh more favorite topics to talk about to be honest um I love debunking those those myths and I love you know proving to people that 6.6 kows actually did never ever ever suited you um but I dislike pulling them off Dan you know I hate that I think if you're going to do it spend the time do the research if you're watching this video now you obviously doing the research and and I take my hat off to you because a lot of people don't make it this far and to be honest I've probably already got that garbage installed on their roof and it's too late awesome Dan well hey thanks so much for the discussion today I hope you guys have enjoyed this video and we'll see you on the next one ...
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